This page archives the text of the forum thread 80s Superman which ran
from January 2002 to May 2003 on the now-defunct DC Comics message boards.



List of contributors:

The Progenitor .. wbrentleigh .. India Ink .. SOLARLORD .. Duplicate Man ..

GernotCarl .. Village Idiot .. Lildeath .. Aldous .. KEV-EL .. fredflinstonedino ..

BruceWayneMan .. KGS .. Mattbert .. Pksoze .. Osgood Peabody .. garythebari ..

Continental Op .. Sankoni .. Dave the Wonder Boy



80s Superman is still being discussed at the SupermanFan forum.




80s Superman - forum - Page 1
Author Topic:   80's Superman


The Progenitor
Member posted January 16, 2002 02:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Progenitor   Click Here to Email The Progenitor
well i dont know if its been done but i am looking for favourite storylines and artwork and so on(much like the 70's thread, which is excellent)
i enjoyed early 80's stuff before Crisis, after Crisis Superman to me wasnt the same. I really enjoyed a LOT of the pre crisis 80's Superman and these are some of the stories that really stand out from the 80's.oh and i just can tell storylines, i regrettfully cant tell which issue or series.

The new Luthor, for me that story rocked, Luthors armour was fantastic, the story was fantastic and i kept saying Wow they blew up Luthor's planet.

The new braniac, i liked that they changed him into a colder more modern version of the old brainiac.

Satanus, another killer story, to me one of THE CLASSICS, it had everything and i anticipated every issue, and it was going on for what seemed forever,Superman split in two and i would pick up an issue and go "is this part of the stroryline?", and then i would read it and go HOLY CRAP.

Well thats just a few to start off. let me what you of the Pre cisis 90's Superman

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Superheroes
Giant freaks
Tear apart the evil
To save the weak
Superheroes
Tell no lies
See all that's true
Though mutant minds

RACER X - SUPERHEROES

http://www.racerxband.com/main.html

THE SUPERHEROES OF ROCK AND ROLL

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The Progenitor
Member posted January 16, 2002 09:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Progenitor   Click Here to Email The Progenitor
hmmmmm

am i the only one that enjoyed many of the pre crisis 80's stories?

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wbrentleigh
Member posted January 16, 2002 09:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wbrentleigh   Click Here to Email wbrentleigh
Actually, you're not alone. The pre-Crisis Superman of the 80s is my favourite version of the Man of Steel as well. I feel he "came of age" during this period, without having significant portions of his history retconned or erased.

It was a great era filled with some fabulous stories. In addition to Brainiac and post-Lexor Luthor, villains like Mongul and the Parasite were far better written than they are today. All that talk about Supes being "too powerful" to challenge is nonsense. It took skilled writers to challenge him effective, was all.

And as for character development, there was plenty, especially with Marv Wolfman's run on Action Comics. Its a shame that DC had to hop on the revisionist tangent and destroy Superman's legacy. By this era even the so-called "Silver Age" elements that modern readers despise so much were being used sparingly (or not at all) or were handled in such a way to make them contemporary, without completely retconning them.

Anyway, long post, but I really like this version of the Man of Steel, and would enjoy keeping this thread going with discussions about the characters, stories, and "what-if" scenarios from that time.

cheers!
wbl

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India Ink
Member posted January 16, 2002 11:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
I'd be willing to support this thread--once I get my head out of the seventies...

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Ink's links:

for Book of Oa--
http://web.archive.org/web/20050404190706/http://www.glcorps.org/

for DC golden age sites--
http://web.archive.org/web/20050404190706/http://www.best.com/~blaklion/dc_links.html

for Superman--
http://web.archive.org/web/20050404190706/http://theages.superman.ws/

for Superboy
http://web.archive.org/web/20050404190706/http://www.superboy-lives.com/

for Superman in the 70s:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050404190706/http://superman.ws/dcmb/seventies/

for Wonder Woman:
http://web.archive.org/web/20050404190706/http://www.hometown.aol.com/linastrick/dpindex1.html

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SOLARLORD
Member posted January 16, 2002 11:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SOLARLORD   Click Here to Email SOLARLORD
Some of my earliest comics are from that era. They've been lost now but I vividly remember the great artwork from Gil Kane at the time.

Some great stuff with Lex Luthor in the armor and the new creepy metallic android Brainiac.

If anyone knows where I can get a hold of these comics, let me know.

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SOLARLORD
Member posted January 17, 2002 05:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SOLARLORD   Click Here to Email SOLARLORD
bump

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wbrentleigh
Member posted January 17, 2002 08:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wbrentleigh   Click Here to Email wbrentleigh
Yep, its a good topic, and I'd like to go on about it (you still out there, Progenitor), but not tonight,alas.

I'm *really* enjoying your posts on the 70s Superman, India, and hope some of us can do the same kind of thing on this thread, I mean, if anyone is interested, of course.

I'll try to get some stuff up tomorrow re: storylines or discussion ideas.

Til then (I can't resist this, cheesy, I know) remember to--

--look, up in the sky!

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Duplicate Man
Member posted January 17, 2002 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Duplicate Man
Unfortunatly, I missed most of the 80's. I stopped reading comics about 1982 and didn't resume until 92. I have a couple of back issues from that period, but not much.

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India Ink
Member posted January 17, 2002 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Believe it or not, because I was moving around with the navy and then going to university in Edmonton, there were times when I wasn't able to buy comics. My run of Action and even DC Comics Presents gets kinda spotty in '84, '85. I'm even missing some Supermans.

I'd be interested to read about some of the issues I missed--especially in DCCP which was one of the best titles in the early eighties.

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The Progenitor
Member posted January 17, 2002 10:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Progenitor   Click Here to Email The Progenitor
quote:
Originally posted by India Ink:

I'd be interested to read about some of the issues I missed--especially in DCCP which was one of the best titles in the early eighties.

DCCP was an excellent read, i loved the SUPEMAN/GREEN LANTERN story, superman and firestorm, superman and the flash.
they gave a superman reader who really wanted to buy all the other DC comics a chance to see these characters in a story the reader of superman would enjoy. at the end of DCCP it kinda got weak, i had a love/hate relationship with the final issue with the phantom zoners, i liked the story yet hated it cause it was so far from what i wanted to happen to the ZONERS.

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Superheroes
Giant freaks
Tear apart the evil
To save the weak
Superheroes
Tell no lies
See all that's true
Though mutant minds

RACER X - SUPERHEROES

http://www.racerxband.com/main.html

THE SUPERHEROES OF ROCK AND ROLL

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GernotCarl
Member posted January 18, 2002 02:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GernotCarl   Click Here to Email GernotCarl
I would love to see the Luthor, Brainiac, and Lord Satanus stories in TPBs. That 1982 serial was especially fun!

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VISIT MY SUPERMAN PAGE: http://web.archive.org/web/20050404190706/http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/gernot0/PAGES/Superman.html Thanks! ;)

********************

Robin: "Holy Oleo!"

Catwoman: "I didn't know you could yodel."

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"When Polly's in trouble, I am not slow! It's hip, hip, hip, and awaaaaay I go!"

********************

"I'm normally not a praying man, but if you're up there, please save me, Superman!"
--Homer J. Simpson

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India Ink
Member posted January 18, 2002 07:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
When did Lord Satanus first appear in the Superman stories?

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The Progenitor
Member posted January 18, 2002 09:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Progenitor   Click Here to Email The Progenitor
damn, see i never know the issue number, but it was in actiion comics believe.
i know, thanks for no help at all, i hope i can dig it up before someone poss

------------------
Superheroes
Giant freaks
Tear apart the evil
To save the weak
Superheroes
Tell no lies
See all that's true
Though mutant minds

RACER X - SUPERHEROES

http://www.racerxband.com/main.html

THE SUPERHEROES OF ROCK AND ROLL

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The Progenitor
Member posted January 18, 2002 11:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Progenitor   Click Here to Email The Progenitor
action comics 527, 1982

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Superheroes
Giant freaks
Tear apart the evil
To save the weak
Superheroes
Tell no lies
See all that's true
Though mutant minds

RACER X - SUPERHEROES

http://www.racerxband.com/main.html

THE SUPERHEROES OF ROCK AND ROLL

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India Ink
Member posted January 18, 2002 11:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Thanks.

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Village Idiot
Member posted January 18, 2002 11:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Village Idiot   Click Here to Email Village Idiot
I went on about this recently on another thread. I filled in some of the holes in the Marv Wolfman "Superman is Split in Two" storyline in Action comics. Great stuff, great period: many of the Silver Age trapping were there, but the stories beared the undeniable mark of increasing depth and sophistication.

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The Progenitor
Member posted January 19, 2002 09:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for The Progenitor   Click Here to Email The Progenitor
Sobbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

Bump

------------------
Superheroes
Giant freaks
Tear apart the evil
To save the weak
Superheroes
Tell no lies
See all that's true
Though mutant minds

RACER X - SUPERHEROES

http://www.racerxband.com/main.html

THE SUPERHEROES OF ROCK AND ROLL

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India Ink
Member posted January 20, 2002 11:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Given we've been wondering about a possible Sandman Saga collection over on the "Superman in the 70s" thread, I have my doubts about seeing any big collections of late seventies or early eighties Superman.

If DC is holding back on the Saga because it might confuse post-Crisis readers, how much more confusing would it be if there were stories published about pre-Crisis Mongul or Lord Satanus?

And yet I think the work of Starlin, Swan/Williamson, Garcia Lopez, Pasko, Wolfman, and Gil Kane ought to have a new audience.

It would be a lamentable fate if this work was never reprinted (at least for a great long while) because it was actually TOO much like the post-Crisis in terms of quality.

Indeed will Newell and Gray's Lois Lane ever see reprint life in a slim volume?

Nope--I can see the big brass in their offices declaring, "this stuff is too good--we can't print it!"

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Lildeath
Member posted January 21, 2002 02:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lildeath   Click Here to Email Lildeath
I had a zillion comicbooks from the early 80s. My dad went to a garage sale one day and picked up a bunch of boxes of comicbooks that some guy was getting rid of. Superman was the star attraction of those boxes.

My feeling, as I was reading them, was this it was sub-standard stuff.

Part of it was Curt Swan's artwork. It simply doesn't work for me. Too bland and two-dimensional. It had its good points, and everything I've read about Curt Swan indicates he was a cool guy, but that artistic style just bored me to tears.

Another part of it was the dialogue and the pacing of the stories. Just plain weak stuff. It had little oomph. It felt, in all honesty, like all the creativity had been drawn out of Superman a long time ago.

And it wasn't just a symptom of that era. There were some great comicbooks running around at that time. X-Men was really becoming interesting. Spider-Man seemed to have a neverending cycle of bad luck that was fascinating to watch. Detective Comics was full of cool art and cooler stories.

It's something that seems to happen to Superman periodically. It wasn't just that period, but also everything between 1993 and 1998 (basically between Death and Superman Rex). I guess other characters have had the same problem at times, I just didn't care that much.

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In 1916, rock wallabies escaped from a circus in Hawaii. There is a small band of them in the hills. I have to go find them.

-- The Empress --

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India Ink
Member posted January 22, 2002 04:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
I realize that some people don't like certain stories, while others do.

That's the nature of the imaginative process. Someone is always going to create art that appeals to one person while it has nothing to say to another person.

There's no shame in that.

But Progenitor and other boarders deserve to have a forum where they can discuss those stories they liked (and even the ones they hated)--which is why I will continue to bump up this thread.

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India Ink
Member posted January 28, 2002 05:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
I posted this on the 70s thread, but I thought I'd also post it here, given it involves something that I regard as important to the 80s...

Kurt Schaffenberger never had a bad day.

Most artists have had those days when they weren't on their game, but Schaffenberger? Never!

Even a bad inking job could hardly dim the obvious talent of the penciller. And the best inker for Kurt was himslef--although Dave Hunt and Dan Adkins served Kurt's pencils well. I''ve been going through my Superman Family stack and it's almost impossible to find a single issue that doesn't have one good Schaffenberger art job--either in the form of a reprint or a new story.

For awhile there, in issues 172 through 180, Schaffenberger was the regular artist on the round-robin new material stories (alternating between Jimmy, Lois, and Supergirl). When the title went to all new material with issue 182, Kurt handled a number of different features, often doing two stories per ish. In no. 189, Kurt pencilled the first three stories in the issue, 34 pages, doing full art on the first page --which has the Superman Family gang gathered around a big cake wishing Superman "Happy Birthday! From the Superman Family" (as editor ENB notes Superman "first appeared in Action Comics # 1, June, 1938" and this was the May-June, 1978 issue of Superman Family)--and full art on the following Jimmy story, 13 pages. Oh yeah, Kurt also did the "Superman Family Circle" masthead for the lettercolumn.

With issue 195, May-June, 1979, Schwartz takes the editor's chair away from ENB, but this is also the first issue of Superman Family to spotlight "Mr.&Mrs. Superman", by ENB and Schaffenberger, the delightful series about the young marrieds on Earth 2, which would run for the remainder of the family title's life (the last issue being no. 222, September, 1982). On this series, rather than simply conforming to the continuity of Earth 2 or the 1940s, Bridwell and Schaffenberger were able to revisit the stories that were important in their own lives--if not actually using 50s and 60s stories (which according to strict comic geek math should be Silver Age, and on Earth 1) then at least giving their stories that same flavour. This was indeed the same Lois that Schaffenberger had illustrated so lovingly in the 50s and 60s.


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India Ink
Member posted January 28, 2002 05:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
By the 80s Schaffenberger's powers as an artist had not diminished one bit. I'm not sure why he cut back on art chores after the Crisis--I'd like to think it was out of choice--though looking years younger than his actual age, Kurt deserved to retire and rest on his laurels for a change--I'd hate to think it was simply because he couldn't get work. I can't imagine editors being so ignorant as to deny Schaffenberger the chance to do more of the good feeling work he had done all his life.

Talking about 80s Superman, "Mr. & Mrs. Superman" (which was mainly a feature of the eighties though it took place in the past) came to me as a blessing. After the Marvel Family, after Lois, after Jimmy, after Shazam! there was more that Kurt had to offer in this quiet but brilliant series. A new spring that brought back the old memories.

Along with his work on the revived Superboy series, Mr. & Mrs. stood out as a final testament to Schaffenberger's strengths on the last leg of his career.

It's quite something to contemplate all that was there in that little back-up feature. A last hurrah for E2 Superman before going into the dark night of Crisis. A last hurrah for Kurt. One of the last great things that ENB did before his death in '87.

A blessing indeed.

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India Ink
Member posted February 07, 2002 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
For more on Kurt, via AWODDC & Alan Asherman, visit the Backdoor to the 70s thread on Other Superman Topics...
http://web.archive.org/web/20050404190706/http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/files/Forum89/HTML/001224.html

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Aldous
Member posted February 10, 2002 01:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
My feeling, as I was reading them, was this it was sub-standard stuff.

Part of it was Curt Swan's artwork. It simply doesn't work for me. Too bland and two-dimensional. It had its good points, and everything I've read about Curt Swan indicates he was a cool guy, but that artistic style just bored me to tears.

Another part of it was the dialogue and the pacing of the stories. Just plain weak stuff. It had little oomph. It felt, in all honesty, like all the creativity had been drawn out of Superman a long time ago.

- Lildeath


Lildeath, I agree with you.

Today I re-read a comic from my collection. It's from the 70s (1978) but it's already demonstrating everything you are talking about - a veritable decline.

The story was "Super-Origin of Microwave Man" beginning in Action #487.

Your criticism of Swan's artwork has some validity - especially if you compare it to what it was just a few years before. I was amazed at how bad the art was in the story I've mentioned. The art didn't improve into the 80s... it declined further. Part of the problem was - and I realise all these things are up for debate, and I would like to hear what other posters have to say - Part of the problem was the inking of Frank Chiaramonte. I know nothing of Frank except for his large body of work inking Swan on Superman, and, in my opinion, this Swan-Chiaramonte work is the worst artwork I ever saw on Superman. It's horrible. Way below standard. But Swan's quality of work was also a shadow of its former self.

Where was the "Oomph" in Superman (as you put it)? What happened?

Progenitor, it's good to have an 80s thread, and I'll keep reading it - and supporting it when I can.

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India Ink
Member posted February 10, 2002 04:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
I don't remember Frank Chiaramonte's term on Superman being all that long--probably about the same amount of time as Vince Colletta's term, and certainly a lot better by comparison with Colletta.

Swan's art looked great most of the time when Anderson inked, looked awful when Colletta inked, looked much better and almost as good as Anderson when Oksner inked, and looked pretty good when Chiaramonte inked--in my own opinion.

And Chiaramonte inked some of the stories that I love best.

I'd say he was every bit as good as Romeo Tanghal. He was head and shoulders above Klaus Janson when Janson started out, inking Perez on Logan's Run. And the art overall was much better than Alex Saviuk's work on various features at the same time--or for that matter Trevor von Eeden's early work on Black Lightning.

And Frank was relatively young--everyone has to start somewhere--who knows how good he could have gotten if he hadn't DIED. Which he did during that not very long run on Swan--which is why his run was not so very long.

Anyway, sofar as Swan goes, I think we see changes in his style in response to the times.

His work in the fifties is standard fare. In the sixties it's cleaner, with more sci-fi details, and a more human look (Superman doesn't look like he's cut from stone).

In the early seventies we have much much bigger panels and more play of emotion.

But in the late seventies and early eighties, tastes had changed among comics fans. Panels on most books were smaller, more to a page, there wasn't as much emotion. In fact with guys like Byrne coming into the field, there was a much more cartoonish and simplistic look to the art. And look at Frank Miller's early work--scratchy little figures, lots of panels. None of this is anything like Neal Adams.

In the eighties, Swan changed yet again. His layouts were different and Al Williamson gave him a new look all over again.

While Williamson's approach might be unique--still he's Al Williamson! One of the great artists--I find it hard to be critical of his style.

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80s Superman - forum - Page 2
Author Topic:   80's Superman


KEV-EL
Member posted February 10, 2002 05:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KEV-EL   Click Here to Email KEV-EL
Well the thing for me is this...

I already had this basic discussion with Lildeath...

He is unable to view anything in the context in which it was presented or written...

I was reading those 60's/70's & 80"s books "hot off the presses"... It hardly mattered or even occured to me to compare them against what had come before...

They are after all, only Superhero comics.

Here's another mistake he continually falls into...

He simply wants Superman comics to be something they aren't now and were never really intended to be...

You compare them to Marvels more mature lines from those (and even from theses times) and they will fail...

They were not written for the same market...

It�s comparing Apples and Oranges�

His argument may have some valid points but that is only because he judges the books against what we have today...

And I don't believe it�s really fair...

Sure there were some great stories in those days (I know, I was there and read them) but really Lildeath, go get your 80's X-Men books and compare them with what they put out now on those titles...

They seldom match up face to face with current production values AND the maturity levels of the writing and stories that simply weren't possible 20 years ago...

I think you'll find if you look hard enough you will find that the stuff we get now is as bad or worse as the anything put out Pre-Crisis...

There is no argument that we live in great times when it comes to the creativity and to some extent, maturity level in comics...

But I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater...

Using Lildeath's Context/shmontext argument, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, Elvis and even the Beatles are crap compared to the musicians and sounds of today...

The lyrics are �corny� the production values are limited and the good god, Records?!?!?

But in my mind, it�s impossible to find or make better rock music�

I loved the 80�s stuff for what it is� It wasn�t pretending to be or even trying to be anything more than what it was...

This is a far cry from much of the crap we get today�

Ask Frank Miller...

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With his will, or against his will, a man will reveal himself with every word ---
Ralph Waldo Emerson

I have (more than likely) been dispatched by Justin Peeler �

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Aldous
Member posted February 13, 2002 01:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
Originally posted by KEV-EL:
Well the thing for me is this...

I already had this basic discussion with Lildeath...

He is unable to view anything in the context in which it was presented or written...

I was reading those 60's/70's & 80"s books "hot off the presses"... It hardly mattered or even occured to me to compare them against what had come before...

They are after all, only Superhero comics.

Here's another mistake he continually falls into...

He simply wants Superman comics to be something they aren't now and were never really intended to be...

You compare them to Marvels more mature lines from those (and even from theses times) and they will fail...

They were not written for the same market...

It�s comparing Apples and Oranges�

His argument may have some valid points but that is only because he judges the books against what we have today...

And I don't believe it�s really fair...

Sure there were some great stories in those days (I know, I was there and read them) but really Lildeath, go get your 80's X-Men books and compare them with what they put out now on those titles...

They seldom match up face to face with current production values AND the maturity levels of the writing and stories that simply weren't possible 20 years ago...

I think you'll find if you look hard enough you will find that the stuff we get now is as bad or worse as the anything put out Pre-Crisis...

There is no argument that we live in great times when it comes to the creativity and to some extent, maturity level in comics...

But I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater...

Using Lildeath's Context/shmontext argument, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Buddy Holly, Elvis and even the Beatles are crap compared to the musicians and sounds of today...

The lyrics are �corny� the production values are limited and the good god, Records?!?!?

But in my mind, it�s impossible to find or make better rock music�

I loved the 80�s stuff for what it is� It wasn�t pretending to be or even trying to be anything more than what it was...

This is a far cry from much of the crap we get today�

Ask Frank Miller...


You're making perfect sense here, Kev.

Kinda reminds me of a friend of mine not so long ago who criticised my affection for the Don Siegel film "Dirty Harry" (1971). He thinks it is so dated and slow and boring compared to the great modern action movies (yeah - like what?)... It's neither slow nor boring and not really so dated. It's firmly based in fantasy, but it has a tangible grittiness and sharpness that is sorely missing from the "great modern action movies". But anyway...

Yeah. Apples and oranges. You're quite right.

But, Kev, tell me what you think here - I feel it takes a certain amount of maturity to appreciate a work of art in the context in which it was originally created and presented. That's not to say the old Superman comics aren't great today. They are great, in any era, in or out of "context". They still stack up (no pun intended). I'm living in 2002 but I like Superman comics from the early 70s. There's your proof.

You mention 80s X-Men. I was very keen on Claremont's X-Men in the 80s. I have been a fan of 70s Superman and 80s X-Men both. To compare them for "realism" (duhh-h) is crazy and unnecessary. Fans who make such comparisons are trying a spurious argument to somehow justify their personal preferences (which is hardly necessary). It was India Ink, I think, who said, "I like what I like."

I just want to add that I really appreciate you and India Ink and the other guys who have a genuine affection for the good old stuff - and who I can argue with and either agree or disagree with yet still keep that sort of friendship and good humour.

Aldous

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Aldous
Member posted February 13, 2002 02:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
Quotes from India Ink....

quote:
And Chiaramonte inked some of the stories that I love best.

Yes, of course there are stories inked by Frank I really like.

quote:
And Frank was relatively young--everyone has to start somewhere--who knows how good he could have gotten if he hadn't DIED. Which he did during that not very long run on Swan--which is why his run was not so very long.

I had no idea about this, India. Can you fill out some details, briefly? I'm always interested to hear a little real-life history of artists, writers, etc.

quote:
Anyway, sofar as Swan goes, I think we see changes in his style in response to the times.

Well, maybe... but, for me, he's great in practically every instance except for when inked by Frank - generally speaking. Which is why I brought it up. But my comic collection is nowhere near as comprehensive as yours by the sound of it. So "I only know what I know".

quote:
His work in the fifties is standard fare.

For me, better than standard fare. A superior artist of the time.

quote:
In the early seventies we have much much bigger panels and more play of emotion.

Yes. It's good stuff.

quote:
But in the late seventies and early eighties, tastes had changed among comics fans. Panels on most books were smaller, more to a page, there wasn't as much emotion. In fact with guys like Byrne coming into the field, there was a much more cartoonish and simplistic look to the art. And look at Frank Miller's early work--scratchy little figures, lots of panels. None of this is anything like Neal Adams.

Hell, no. Again, I hardly need to say, it's my opinion - I like Byrne's work. I like Miller's art a bit less - I don't think he's all that great (as an artist). Even added together, they fall far short of someone like Neal Adams. That's true for me no matter what era you slot Neal's work into. They are just not in the same league, either as draughtsmen or as regards the expression of emotion.

quote:
I find it hard to be critical of his style.

That's what being a fan is all about.

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India Ink
Member posted February 15, 2002 11:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
I don't remember too much about Chiaramonte. One day soon, hopefully, I'll get round to reading the Pasko issues and I'll look through the lettercolumns to see if there's any info there. But I don't remember that we were ever told how he died. I just remember the feeling of shock and disappointment.

I also recall that for a while before that it was unpredictable as to who we'd end up with on any given Superman issue. Oksner had gone, and a number of different inkers were embellishing Curt. So Frank, a permanent reliable inker, seemed like a breath of fresh air at the time. Although probably Dan Adkins (who also did some inking around this time) was a bit better, more seasoned, than Frank.

I wasn't trying to make a statement about who is definitely a great artist. I was just throwing out names to offer a point of comparison. The fact is, other than special projects, Neal Adams wasn't around in the mainstream comics, from about 1975 onward. The same goes for a lot of the other much admired artists from the early seventies--Barry Windsor Smith, Berni Wrightson, Michael Wm Kaluta--all had gone on to work in other areas where presumably they could make more money. There wasn't enough money in the mainstream comics to keep most professional artists happy. Murphy Anderson also left around this time.

So in the latter half of the seventies we had mostly young artists who were developing their style. Guys like Byrne, Miller, Perez, Rogers, Grell. Some of these guys got good real fast--some took a long time to get good if they ever did. But most produced uneven--unprofessional--work. And most didn't ape the Adams or the Wrightson style. Probably because these styles were too hard to ape for inexperienced artists. There were guys like Rich Buckler and Mike Nasser who did a good job of aping Neal Adams, but I was looking at a Buckler comic yesterday and I noticed how bad some panels are while others are fantastic. Which is the problem with aping somone like Adams. The steals are great, but everything else doesn't match up.

It's a lot easier to aim not so high. So it's easier to do less finished stilted figures, if that's your style throughout the book.

Against this backdrop of artists who managed to impress fans with specacular florishes, but unprofessional work--we had a few seasoned pros like Swan and Novick and Aparo who were consistent in their style. You might object to their style in the first place--and at that point I can only throw up my hands, since it's impossible to debate the merits when one refuses to even appreciate the stylistic approach--but the fact is these guys always produced the same style in every panel in a given story--there were no clunkers that stood out like a sore thumb.

But I remember reading in a lettercolumn in the early eighties that Curt Swan was working with someone to try develop a new approach to his layout style that would suit the tastes of the time. This made me absolutely cringe. Swan, one of the great layout men, trying to force a change to his style simply because a bunch of pimply fanboys couldn't appreciate great art when they saw it!

Schaffenberger puts the lie to this whole idea of art being current with the times.

I admire Curt Swan for his desire to keep up with the times, but I admire Schaffenberger for the sureness of his style.

A Schaffenberger work of art is good because it's good.

Artists shouldn't try to draw like the latest fad. They should develop a clear vision of what they want to express with their style and then stick with that.

It seems a great theft that we should have lost any Swan artwork not because Swan was too old to draw it but fans were unwilling to see it.

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India Ink
Member posted February 15, 2002 11:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Oh--at the risk of being overly longwinded--none of that was why I originally hit reply.

I wanted to point out that while in hindsight we might decide that a certain artstyle was great, that's not how our minds always work when we read these funny books.

I was looking at some old Gold Keys and Charltons and I was struck by the absolute hack bad art there was in some of these books, published at the same time that Joe Kubert or Gene Colan or Curt Swan or John Romita were doing professional work for DC and Marvel.

Yet I also remember loving the stories therein. So what right do I have to really say that the art was bad? Yes it was bad by my mature appraising standards--but it did the job. I understood the story, I was drawn into the story, I had happy memories of the story. Which is all one should expect of a comic in the end.

The fact that Superman comics have almost always had artwork that achieves some higher level is a nice plus, but it's not the only thing or the most important thing about those comics. If we had fun, that's enough.

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Aldous
Member posted February 16, 2002 12:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
But I remember reading in a lettercolumn in the early eighties that Curt Swan was working with someone to try develop a new approach to his layout style that would suit the tastes of the time. This made me absolutely cringe. Swan, one of the great layout men, trying to force a change to his style simply because a bunch of pimply fanboys couldn't appreciate great art when they saw it!

- India Ink


Well, that's the big question. Do you remain true to your vision, or do you change as best you can to try to be "in"? As an artist myself, this becomes a very important question. Curt Swan never had to change to be great. By the 80s his reputation as one of the all-time great comic book artists was assured and fully deserved. Looking at what you wrote above, it's not the fact that Curt wanted to try something different to remain hip that bothers me... it's the fact that he may have been prepared to be led around by the nose - "working with someone to try to develop a new approach..." Who the hell was he "working with"? An artist of his own calibre? Probably not. And I am with you on this - **cringe**

quote:
A Schaffenberger work of art is good because it's good.

I like these little sayings of yours. Very simple and true, sort of tautological.

quote:
It seems a great theft that we should have lost any Swan artwork not because Swan was too old to draw it but fans were unwilling to see it.

Yes. But we will always have the rich body of his work to enjoy. No one can take away his body of past work. It is always there.

Does anyone look in on the Green Lantern thread? I love Hal-GL... there is a sort of war going on between the fans of Hal and the fans of the new GL. The Hal fans want Hal Jordan back as GL - presumably because they want to read comics starring Hal as GL! I am a Silver-Age GL fan... and if I want to read Hal as GL, then I will! The great old stuff is all there to be read! No one can take it away. It's like The Beatles (whom I also love).... the body of great work is always there to enjoy.

So that's kind of what I meant about Curt.

I really enjoy your posts, India.

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Aldous
Member posted February 17, 2002 11:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
Action #507 & #508
1980

Story: Cary Bates
Art: Curt Swan + Frank Chiaramonte
"The Miraculous Return of Jonathan Kent"

I read this again last night, for the first time in many many years, and I was actually touched by the story.

Cary Bates must have either been a father at the time he wrote this, or he must have appreciated his own father, because the pathos here is real and hard to miss. It is a very good story, and very well told. The writer did a great job in bringing the emotions to life. (There's even a good-ol' traditional DC "choke" in there. )

I'm not a big fan of Frank inking Curt, but the artists handled Jonathan in quite a sensitive manner.

Good job all around.

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fredflinstonedino
Member posted February 18, 2002 10:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for fredflinstonedino   Click Here to Email fredflinstonedino
quote:
Originally posted by Duplicate Man:

I stopped reading comics about 1982 and didn't resume until 92.


I think we all did.
The reason is called John Byrne.
So many of us did they had to kill him in 92 due to depressing sales. What a Re-vamp! Oh, my God!

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India Ink
Member posted February 27, 2002 08:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
You know I've been looking through my Superman and Action mags from the late seventies and early eighties and I can find nothing to substantiate anything that I said earlier.

For one thing, Chiaramonte was a regular inker (usually over Swan) on the Super-books between 1977 and 1982. Much longer than I remembered--seemed like he was only around for a year or two in my poor memory.

And for another thing, I can find no mention sofar in any lettercolumns or other columns that I've seen in my researches that say anything about Chiaramonte dying, or just why he suddenly departed the DC ranks. But suddenly he did go.

He seemed to be THE inker in good standing on the Super books, and then the next month he wasn't. With Dave Hunt mainly taking over his duties.

And I don't know of any comics for DC or their competition that Frank worked on after his sudden departure. So it seems like he did make a break from the world of comics. I suspect I'm right, sadly, that Frank did die back then. I'm probably just not remembering the facts correctly--like where I saw mention of his passing, and such.

Anyone with better knowledge, please pipe up and let me know.

I'll have more to say about the actual work of Frank (or Francisco) and others from those days--as a result of some of my reading of late--eventually, once I've gone through a few more books.

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India Ink
Member posted March 02, 2002 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
There are times when there's no good in being right...

The announcement of Frank Chiaramonte's passing appeared in a box at the end of Dick Giordano's "Meanwhile..." column in the August 1983 issues of DC comics.

Here is that announcement as it was printed in Superman 386:

"DC staffers and free-lancers alike were shocked and saddened to learn of the death of Frank Chiaramonte on January 28th. He died of cancer at age 40. DC and Marvel fans knew Frank best for his work as an inker, notably on Curt Swan's Superman pencils and Mike Ploog's Werewolf By Night. Most fans were less aware of his work on P.S. magazine an illustrated monthly maintenance manual for the army which he did regularly since coming to this country from Cuba in 1967.

"Frank brought a high level of professionalism, skill and dedictaion to his work and he was a quiet, yet personable, gentle man. He will be missed by those who knew and worked with him."

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India Ink
Member posted March 02, 2002 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Rather than concentrating on the ongoing series from the eighties, I thought I would have a look at some of the mini-series that were published in those years (and a one-shot for charity). So over the past week I've perused these notables:

1. World of Krypton--3 issues (July-Sept. '79); writer: Paul Kupperberg; artists: Howard Chaykin and Murphy Anderson (on 1&2), Chaykin and Chiaramonte (on 3); editor: E. Nelson Bridwell.

2. (Superman presents the) Krypton Chronicles--3 issues (Sept.-Nov. '81); writer: Bridwell; artists: Swan and Chiaramonte; editor: Julius Schwartz.

3. (Superman presents the) Phantom Zone--4 issues (Jan.-April '82); writer: Steve Gerber; artists: Gene Colan and Tony DeZuniga; editor: Dick Giordano.

4. Superman: The Secret Years--4 issues (Feb.'85-May '85); writer: Bob Rozakis; artists: Swan and Kurt Schaffenberger; editor: Schwartz.

5. (Superman and Batman Heroes Against Hunger--famine relief one-shot, 48 pages (1986); writers/artists/colorists/letterers: a multitude of talent (24 different creative teams, one team per two pages); conceived by Jim Starlin and Berni Wrightson; editor: Robert Greenberger.

6. Lois Lane ("When It's Raining, God is Crying!")--2 issues, 48 pages (Aug-Sept. '86); writer: Mindy Newell; artist: Gray Morrow; editor: Greenberger.

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India Ink
Member posted March 02, 2002 05:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
Fuhget about the happy face up there it wasn't part of the title--I fuhgot to disable the friggin smilies--mumble, mumble...

1. World of Krypton

Although it appeared in the seventies, in '79, this mini sets the stage for a lot of things in other series. While credited to writer Paul Kupperberg, I detect the presence of editor ENB throughout this series, shaping the plot, giving the needed reference material, providing linguistic and factual help, probably even guiding the artists in the construction of scenes.

This mini isn't really about the "World of Krypton." It doesn't take on such a monumental task. Instead it concentrates on the life of one Kryptonian--albeit next to Kal-El and Kara Zor-El probably the most well-documented life of any Kryptonian--that being Superman's father, Jor-El.

In this one concise chronology, Kupperberg and Bridwell bring together all the scattered tales of Jor-El that had been published over the years, subtracting any contradictory tales from the lot, so that the reader comes away with a clear understanding of the major moments and achievements in Jor-El's life.

Rather than using Superman's super-memory to recall Krypton (a device that had been used by other chroniclers at the risk of straining our credulity), the set-up for this series has Superman viewing his father's "mindtapes." As the Last Son of Krypton explains on the first page: "The rocket which carried me here opened a space-warp between Krypton and Earth--which explains the appearance of so many Kryptonian artifacts around the planet....like this tape I found on the moon--"

And the series is littered with such explanations and factoids about Krypton that must have been generated from the brilliantly organizing mind of E. Nelson Bridwell. For instance, did you know that 18 Krypton years = 25 Earth years (of course, when you think about it it makes sense, being a larger planet Krypton must be further from its sun than Earth is from Sol, thus it takes longer for the planet to journey around Rao). There are names given for all the months and Kryptonian words pepper the dialogue (like "moliom" the word used when addressing a member of the science council).

This is where the mini-series succeeds, although I wish Bridwell had been good enough to give references for all the comics that this chronology derives from, but in its overarching concern for detailing all the anecdotes of Jor-El's life the series doesn't devote enough time to the man himself. What made him tick? Why does Lara love him so much that's she's willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for him--where's the "Paul and Linda" lovestory behind this "Wingspan?"

As for the artwork, like the story, it's a mixed bag. Even though I haven't liked much of anything Chaykin has written in the last twenty years (I did like Thrillkillers, however), I'd have to say he is one of the best artists doing comics today (when he does find the time to actually draw). And in 1972, I read and loved his artwork on "Iron Wolf" in Wierd Worlds, which like his contemporaries in the early seventies, Walt Simonson and Mike Kaluta, had a lot of razzle-dazzle that compensated for his lack of technical skill. But World of Krypton offers us neither the raw talent of young Chaykin or the professional work of mature Chaykin. Instead it tries to be Curt Swan!

Possibly at the urging of Bridwell, Chaykin swipes freely from Swan throughout the 3 issues. There are panels lifted directly from Swan. And it helps that Jor-El is Superman's double. Just copy Superman's face put a headband on him and--voila!--Jor-El. With Anderson inking you could almost swear at times that you're seeing an actual Swanderson page. And maybe you are--for instance page 9 of issue 2 lifts the final 3 panels (layout and all) from page 13 in "The Origin of Superman" (by Bridwell/Infantino/Swan/Anderson, first printed in the 1973 [i]Amazing World of Superman: Metropolis Edition[i] and elsewhere since then). This is the scene where young Jor-El (actually Jor-El II) comes to the bed of his dying father (Superman's grandfather, Jor-El I)--it's a moving scene, except it's swiped from the scene where young Clark comes to the bed of his dying father, Jonathan Kent!

The holes in the artwork only show through when Chaykin and Anderson illustrate the secondary characters (ie. characters that go beyond the Swan swipe-file) or where Chaykin has to make up his own poses--in which case while wearing the Swanderson heads these figure look very awkward, like Ken dolls with limited arm movement.

Once Chiaramonte is inking, in issue 3, the pretense is almost gone. There are scenes that genuinely look like good Swan, but Frank is still new to the Superman Family. He doesn't have Murphy's experience, gained from inking so many Swan pencils, so he can't make Chaykin look good.

And while I might seem critical here, I hasten to add that I don't fault Chaykin on this. He gave us, the readers, what we wanted. Since Swan was the main artist on most of the Jor-El stories from which this chronicle derives, it's a good thing that we get to see the Swan version here as well. Chaykin did the best he could given his skill at the time.

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India Ink
Member posted March 02, 2002 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
2. Krypton Chronicles

Rather than documenting the life of one person, this series endeavours to explore Kryptonian history over ten thousand years!

As a story it's much better than the previous series, although it's still mainly a series of anecdotes. The set-up is longer and much more involved providing lots of entertainment.

Y'see, Morgan Edge has been looking at the Nielson's for "Roots" and "Shogun" and he wants the same kinda ratings bonanza for Galaxy. The dialogue between Perry and Clark on the elevator to Edge's office is priceless, as is the sparring between Perry and Morgan. Poor Clark--because everyone knows he's been a good friend of Superman's since their days in Smallville-- he lands the task of writing the book that will serve as the source for Galaxy's mini-series epic: "The Krypton Chronicles!"

By the time of this story Kandor has been enlarged and its citizens are now living on a Krypton-like planet rotating around a red sun, but dimensionally removed from our cosmos--except at certain times of year when it's possible for Superman and Supergirl to venture there by rocketship (it all happened in the 40th anniversary issue of Superman, no. 338, August '79).

Turns out this is one of those times of the year, and soon Kal-El and Kara Zor-El are off to stay with the relations (at least while the dimensional bridge lasts).

By this time Frank Chiaramonte has been working on Swan's pencils for awhile, and it's a good fit. No longer does he approach the art like it's Mike Ploog, but rather his work makes me think of George Klein. Not as crisp and clear as Klein (although the bad printing from Spartan press in these years may have played a part), but still very evocative of those great tales from the early sixties written by Edmond Hamilton.

Bridwell has outdone himself in putting together a well thought out history, language, and culture for his Krypton. Aiding us in this effort is a glossary at the back of each issue. Bridwell explains at the head of the glossary (for issue 1):

"Before presenting the words and definitions, we'll give a few facts about Kryptonian language and names.

"We have done our best to translate the Kryptonese words and names into the English alphabet, but this is not always easy, as the Kryptonese alphabet consists of 118 characters, each with a precise sound. A double letter indicates a strong emphasis on the sound.

"Kryptonese plurals are created by adding an O to the word, as we add an S in English. Some are given below.

"Kryptonian men used hyphenated names, like Jor-El and Jax-Ur, the last part of the name being the family name, or surname. Women used the father's full name as a surname, except for orphans such as Lesla-Lar (see her name in the listing below)."

At the head of issue 2's glossary he adds:

"There are also 11 characters for the numerical system. Their zero is used only for the purpose of indicating a zero, while 10 has special character of its own. Using the Roman X to stand for it, we could say that X=10, 1X=20, 2X=30, and so on. 100 is 9X, 101=X1, 110=XX, and 111 is the first three digit number.

"The calendar is quite different from our own, since 18 Kryptonian years equal 25 Earth years. As the aging process was the same there, a Kryptonian was fully grown at the age of 15."

Some tidbits from the glossaries: "ROKYN--The planet on which Kandor was enlarged. From RO = the possessive form of Rao + KYN = gift. Therefore 'Gift of God.'" "HATUAR--The Kryptonian word for ASBESTOS, named for Hatu-El." "JURU--A valley on the continent of Lurvan. The only part of the planet which was never explored." "WEGTHOR--One of Krypton's moons. It was destroyed when an experiment by the villain Jax-Ur went wrong, killing the people who had colonized Wegthor. The remains of this moon joined with space debris to form the rings around Krypton like those around Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus." "WOLU--A Kryptonian 'hour' consisting of 100 DENDARO." "YUDA--One of the chief goddesses of ancient Krypton. She was the patron of love and also Krypton's two moons, which, when they seemed to come together in the night sky, were believed to represent marriage. Though her worship ended with the flood, she was remembered in folklore, and at one time a mechanical statue of her was used at certain festivities in Superman's home city, Kryptonopolis." "KRYPTONOPOLIS--The city of Superman's birth. Actually, this a rendering of the name in Earth language, using the Greek 'polis' (city). The original Kryptonian name is very difficult to pronounce. The city was founded by outcasts from Erkol, mutated by radiation during the Erkol-Xan war. Although they were strange in appearance--and had telekinetic powers--their offspring were normal." "LESLA-LAR--A Kryptonian who was Supergirl's double and became her enemy. An orphan, Lesla took a surname from the family of her best friend, Zora Vi-Lar. "OLIPHENT--A type of large animal domesticated and used as a beast of burden in ancient Urrika. Despite the similarity to our word 'elephant,' there was little resemblance to this Earth creature except that both are large. The Oliphent was not even a mammal, but a warm-blooded egg-laying creature. If, as some scientists now believe, dinosaurs were warm-blooded, they may have been something like the Oliphent." "RAO--In the mythology of ancient Krypton, the sun-god, who was deemed the chief of all gods. So great was the respect for the red sun of Krypton that any soldier of Erok's time automatically became an officer if he had red hair. When Jaf-El preached the worship of one god, he gave Him the name of Rao, though no longer identifying Him specifically with the sun. Note that in the wedding ceremony, the phrase used was 'Rao, who kindled the sun,' showing Him to be the sun's creator, but not the sun itself."

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India Ink
Member posted March 02, 2002 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
2. Krypton Chronicles (cont'd)

The story tells about Superman's roots, ie. his ancestors. But rather than beginning at the beginning and proceeding forward the story goes backward. Superman learns about an earlier and earlier forebear as the series unfolds. The latest predecessors have left mindtapes in their statues (activated when a signifying object is placed in the hands of their statues). Mindtapes existed as a technology only recently. Earlier ancestors made voice recordings. But earlier still no such recordings existed, however Uncle Zor-El has a collection of headbands from the House of El, and he has fashioned an ingenius device to allow Superman to read residue memories left on the band of its owner. But for the ancient days no headbands are extant. So in the third issue, after Supergirl and Superman have made their escape from Rokyn before the dimensional bridge collapses, they return to the Fortress where Superman retrieves one of his own inventions.

They then travel through a space-warp wormhole arriving at an area of space (by my own calculation, six to ten thousand light years away from where Krypton used to exist) and using this device they capture light rays that escaped from Krypton six to ten thousand years ago, moving around in space with this device to collect the light rays, which are then displayed on a viewing screen. Using their ability to read lips, and Kal-El's knowledge of ancient Kryptonese, they are able to peek in on key moments in the lives of their ancestors (although sometimes a person's back is turned, and the word balloons are blank).

Needless to say, the result of all Clark's research was a runaway bestseller. As Morgan Edge says, "The TV writers are turning it into the biggest mini-series yet! It'll make Roots wither! Put it on in a sweep period and win top Nielsons for the year! Greg Reed's been signed to play the triple roles of Superman, Jor-El II, and Erok! It'll be an all-star cast! We'll go after Fonda, Hepburn, Richard Chamberlain. Say--I wonder if Heston would play the prophet Jaf-El...?"

In addition to the glossaries in the three issues, issues 2 and 3 had centrespreads showing a Map of Krypton and the El family tree respectively.

Running through some of the members of that tree, chronologically--starting that is with the last ancestor shown in the series--it all begins with Erok-El, who was the first to take a sirname, adding El to his name because the stars have shone favorably upon him (El meaning star) and naming his son Kal-El (Kal meaning child). The city named after him was also called Erok-El, but that became corrupted over the centuries and was called Erkol (the oldest city on Krypton). Erok united the tribes of the ancient continent of Urrika and became their Bethgar (ruler), taking Milia as his Bythgar (female version of Bethgar). And the Kryptonian calendar was dated from the day they were wed.

Many generations followed after Kal-El, the second Bethgar, and some were good rulers while others like Wab-El and his son Vad-El were tyrants. Vad-El's brother Hyr-El fled from Erkol and fathered Jaf-El and Tio-El. Jaf-El preached belief in the one God and he made many prophesies, warning the people of a coming flood that would overrun all the land. His brother, Tio-El, understood all creatures of the land, and when the flood came the brothers and a band of followers mounted the backs of the wild "Winged Beasts," gentle creatures who delivered their riders to the top of Mount Mondru, on the continent of Twenx, west of Urrika.

Bur-El was born several generations later, and he befriended Kil-Gor an inventor, who gained little respect in his own day. Bur-El married Wedna Kil-Gor, daughter of Kil-Gor, and he recorded the many inventions of his ingenius father-in-law.

More generations followed, leading to the brothers Val-El and Tro-El. Val-El read about many of the inventions of Kil-Gor, including an idea which gave him a compass for exploration. He led an expedition of four ships east across the vast ocean of Dandahu to a new continent. Joining him on the voyage was his wayward brother, Tro-El, who would lead an unsuccessful mutiny against Val-El. The mutineers were put ashore on the island of Bokos, which became an island of pirates and thieves. Along the way the Val-El expedition discovered the inhabitants of Vathlo, a land of black skinned people. On the high seas, one of their ships was attacked by a Pryllgu (a kind of sea monster), and the captain of that ship--Ar-Go--went down with his vessel. Arriving on the new continent of Lurvan, they named their settlement after Ar-Go (thus Argo City, the birthplace of Kara Zor-El, Supergirl). Still later, Val-El led an expedition across land into the "eerie valley of Juru." And they were never seen again, nor anyone since who dared to travel to that mysterious place.

Other generations followed, including Sul-El the astronomer who using the designs of Kil-Gor created a telescope and saw the coming invasion of the Vrang fleet from outer space. No one listened to his warning and the Vrang soon enslaved the Kryptonian people setting them to work mining the Jewel Mountains. Sul-El's son, Hatu-El was inspired by the brave youth Val-Lor who refused to be a hypocrate and defied the Vrang, and was killed on the spot by the heartless invading SoBs. Encouraged by Val-Lor's martyrdom, Hatu-El and a band of rebels organized the overthrow of their masters and sent Vrang butt packing back into space.

More generations followed--Wir-El the inventor, Fedra Shu-El the legislator and her husband Thar-El the jurist, their son Plen-El the novelist. Eventually leading to the brothers Yu-El and Pir-El. Yu-El was a priest of the one God, while Pir-El was a general in the Final War. Pir-El's son, Tala-El brokered the deal that united the people under a scientocracy. And Gam-El, son of Pir-El, was the master architect who rebuilt the great city state of Kryptonopolis, which had been destroyed during the Final War.

And generations after Gam-El came Var-El who begat Jor-El I, Kalya Var-El, and Zim-El. Jor-El II and Zor-El are the sons of Jor-El I and Nimda An-Dor. The evil Kru-El is the offspring of Zim-El and Byma Ruth-Ar. While Van-Zee is the son of Kalya Var-El and Nim-Zee.

---------------------------

When I have some more time I'll review the other books on my reading list.

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India Ink
Member posted March 02, 2002 10:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
3. Phantom Zone

In the November 1962 issue of Superman, no. 157 ("The Super-Revenge of the Phantom Zone Prisoner), convicted for a crime he didn't commit, having served his twenty-five years, Quex-Ul was released from incarceration in the Phantom Zone. Having nursed his anger against the House of El for all those years--blaming Jor-El for his wrongful conviction--Quex-Ul set out to revenge himself upon Kal-El aka Superman. But in the end he had a change of heart and put himself in the way of the Gold Kryptonite trap that would most surely have robbed the Man of Steel of all his powers. Now Quex-Ul was powerless and suffering from severe memory loss to boot, so good ol' Clark found him a job working in the production department of the Daily Planet. That's where 157 ended.

With issue 1 of Gerber's Phantom Zone--twenty years later our time--Quex-Ul is still there doing paste-ups for the Planet's front page. Or I should say Charlie Kweskill, as everybody knows him (including himself)--and it's been so long that Perry almost has forgotten that Charlie used to be a PZ Kryptonian in yellow silk pajammas.

Charlie goes home to his lonely apartment, but his dreams plague him. In his sleep he's visited by phantoms of his Kryptonian past, but waking he doesn't know what it all means. Then the Phantom Zoners (who have the limited power of making contact with our world) hatch a scheme that results in Charlie and Superman being sucked into the Phantom Zone, while most of the Zoners leap for freedom in the "real" world.

One of those who decides to remain behind in the Phantom Zone is Mon-El--given it's the only place where he is safe from the deadly lead poisoning that would kill him. Conferring with the now imprisoned Superman, Mon-El tells him that it is possible to go beyond the realm of the Phantom Zone itself, through several levels of unreality or reality, and theoretically arrive in the "real" universe--though those who've tried it have never been successful.

Thus Superman and Charlie Kweskill set out on their quest for freedom.

Meanwhile havoc reigns on Earth as the empowered Phantom Zoners run amock--nearly bringing the planet to a state of all-out world war (if not for the timely interventions of Supergirl and Wonder Woman).

The leader of the Phantom Zone pack is General Dru-Zod, while Faora and Jax-Ur serve as able lieutenants, aided by Kru-El and Professor Va-Kox. Jer-Em, the religious zealot from the mystic valley of Juru (remember that eerie unexplored land where Val-El disappeared thousands of years ago), is neither on the side of the heroes or the villains but like a lone voice in the wilderness calls out for all to repent their sins and embrace the life after which is to come. Az-Rel and Nadira are psychicly gifted youths from a lost generation who wander the Earth in a disaffected haze until they come upon an all night club where music cult non-conformists gather to celebrate "Bizarro"--a movement that declares "anyone born after 1961 is an imperfect duplicate of a human being."

One of my favourite scenes, from the fourth issue, beautifully rendered by Colan and DeZuniga, is both twisted and evocative as it shows a young shepherd named Gerard Amateau, out in the pastures of provincial France. He spies some "clothing hidden in the grass. Then he hears a female voice--singing--a song he has never heard, in a language he has never heard. He parts the grass at the edge of a pond, and for a moment he is certain he's gone mad. For there, bathing in the shallow water is a vision--so exquisitely, agonizingly sensual that he can hardly bear to look upon it. He trembles, fighting the impulse of every nucleus of every cell of his body to swarm forward and envelop her. He tries to concentrate on her song--to decipher its meaning. It's futile. The thundering of his heart is too distracting. He prays that she cannot hear it.

"But she can.

"She is Faora Hu-Ul of Krypton...and her auditory sense is as keen as Superman's. She acknowledges Gerard's presence...with an unselfconscious glance. Unlike her song, its meaning is abundantly clear--even to an inexperienced youth from the provinces. Their lips meet. Her arms enfold him--tighter--tighter--until with a sudden, sickening snap, they break his spine--and crush his ribs against the unyielding steel of her own. Then as his lungs fill with blood, she releases him...and watches as he sinks silently to his death.

"She is Faora Hu-Ul, and in the grasslands of Alezar she operated a private concentration camp, where males were lured by her beauty, only to be tormented and slain."

Through the several realms of the Phantom Zone Superman and Charlie journey on a magical mystery tour, meeting the psychedelic manifestations of a John Lennon dream. Charlie Kweskill, Quex-Ul, regains his memory and his power only to fly into the icey flaming maw of the great demon of this mystic realm, Aethyr, surrendering himself in a gambit to save Superman and the Earth.

Finally, "flying through a rent in the fabric of space itself" Superman returns to the tactile world and aided by his fellow super-heroes defeats the plot by Zod that would have put the entire Earth into the Phantom Zone.

Jer-Em no longer wishes to exist in any of these tainted realms--Earth, Phantom Zone--but rather to go to Rao. And so he hugs a lump of Green Kryptonite to his body. Az-Rel and Nadira, the two disaffected youths, happen upon the old zealot in his dying moments. Az-Rel hungers for death herself and joins the old man, and in her dying moments unleashes her psychic pyrotic power (the ability to make people spontaneously combust), consuming Az-Rel in flame.

Given I was an avid fan of Howard the Duck, so long as Gerber was writing it, I loved this series. A little more serious than Howard (although Howard could be quite ponderous at times), this book has a lot of the same kind of off-the-wall imagery by Gene Colan (who also illustrated most of the Duck's wierd adventures), as well as recalling Gene's work on Dr. Strange.

Moreover this series is one of the best illustrations of just how much could be done with the Superman mythos given half a chance. It shows all that potentiality that was never entirely explored. Superman is the sort of character that could have been bent in any one of a number of directions. It's provoking to think what Gerber, Moore, Gaiman, or Morrison might have done with all that wierd and wonderful lore from Weisinger and Bridwell.

Of course there's a downside in pushing Superman in a more serious direction, one that I'll return to after I've done reviewing the other books on my reading list.

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Aldous
Member posted March 02, 2002 11:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Aldous
quote:
India Ink wrote:

1. World of Krypton--3 issues (July-Sept. '79); writer: Paul Kupperberg; artists: Howard Chaykin and Murphy Anderson (on 1&2), Chaykin and Chiaramonte (on 3); editor: E. Nelson Bridwell.

2. (Superman presents the) Krypton Chronicles--3 issues (Sept.-Nov. '81); writer: Bridwell; artists: Swan and Chiaramonte; editor: Julius Schwartz.


Superb reviews, India. That's quite a bit of work you've put in there.

quote:
3. (Superman presents the) Phantom Zone--4 issues (Jan.-April '82); writer: Steve Gerber; artists: Gene Colan and Tony DeZuniga; editor: Dick Giordano.

By coincidence, I was just thumbing through this saga last night, so I am not going to read your review yet -- I'll read the comic first.

I did, however, catch this at the bottom of your post:

quote:
Of course there's a downside in pushing Superman in a more serious direction, one that I'll return to after I've done reviewing the other books on my reading list.

I'm looking forward to this too.

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India Ink
Member posted March 03, 2002 04:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
4. Secret Years

Unlike the comicbooks, the television version of "Superboy" in the late eighties concerned itself not with Clark's years in Smallville, but with his years away from Smallville and at university, along with Lana Lang.

When that TV series came out there would also be a tie-in comic (Superboy, The Comic Book), but even before then the comics had flirted from time to time with filling in Superman's gap years (after leaving Smallville, before working at the Planet).

The story that introduces Lori Lemaris ("The Girl in Superman's Past!" Superman 129, May 1959), for example, told how Clark met the mermaid in his senior year at Metropolis U. In the early seventies, for a brief time, there was a back-up series in Action (back when Murray Boltinoff was editor) that told tales of Clark's university days (presumably during his freshman year). And then in the early eighties a series called "Superman: The In-Between Years" appeared as a back-up in rotation with a few others in the Superman mag.

This last series was written by Bob Rozakis and pencilled by Kurt Schaffenberger, with an assortment of inkers, and it began to tell what happened after the deaths of the Kents and after Superboy left Smallville, chronicling Clark's early days as a freshman at Met. U. Along with Clark, in the cast of characters were Lana, Clark's dorm roommates--Ducky, Dave, and Tommy--Lt. Henderson (not yet an inspector), and reporter Perry White (not yet an editor at the Planet).

Rozakis managed to tell only a few stories before the series was cancelled along with the other back-ups to make room for full-length Superman stories. But Rozakis wouldn't give up on his idea and campaigned for a mini-series, finally getting his second chance with The Secret Years.

Unlike "The In-Between Years," this series skipped forward a couple of years to Clark's junior year at Met. U. By this time Lana had left for Hudson University (resolving a continuity conflict left over from a Lois Lane story that had Lana graduated from Hudson--I guess H.U. had a better broadcast communications program).

Clark's roommates are still around (although Ducky would suffer for being in a Rozakis cast of characters), as are Bill Henderson and Perry White (still a reporter, working for his editor George Taylor), but the first issue introduces a new character to the cast--Billy Cramer (no, not Billy J. Kramer, who sang all those British Invasion hits like "Little Children" and "I Call Your Name"--this is Billy Cramer with a 'C'). Billy is two years behind Clark and newly arrived at M.U. from Smallville.

This time around, instead of pencilling, Schaffenberger is inking over Curt Swan, offering a bright, handsome looking series, with only a few technical glitches. Although Rozakis had several sidelines at DC as a writer, assistant editor, and Answer Man, his actual chief occupation was as DC's production manager. In this capacity he oversaw several experiments with new printing processes during the eighties. The Secret is part of a pilot project that had Spartan Presses using flexographic printing. Cheaper than offset printing, but more expensive than the traditional practices, the flexograph presents much clearer inks for the most part and intense colours. As this process was still in the experimental stages, there are some technical snafus when the colour doesn't come out as intended or the inks are smudged, but on the whole it looks quite impressive.

And Frank Miller did all the covers, by the way, although they have virtually no relation to the actual contents of the series. Although maybe the Miller covers should have given me a clue...

In my mind I associate Bob Rozakis with fun upbeat material. Most of his work was lightweight and I liked that about him. He wasn't a Denny O'Neil or even a Martin Pasko, he just delivered good entertainment that made a sunny afternoon that much brighter. So going into this series--with Rozakis, Swan, Schaffenberger, and bright colours--I'm already thinking this is going to be a lot of fun!

Maybe this reputation for upbeat, lightweight fare dogged Rozakis. Maybe he yearned to be taken seriously--and as comics moved in a more deadly earnest direction in the eighties, this might've been a genuine professional concern if Bob wanted to snag more writing assignments. He definitely seems to be out to prove himself with The Secret Years. This is the only explanation I can come up with for why this mini-series is so downbeat and depressing.

Clark is positively a downer--yes, his parents died three years ago, he's got a right to cry, but does he have to remind everyone of his sorrow constantly? He treats Billy Cramer with utter contempt and indifference, while the young fellow follows him everywhere and would do anything to prove his unabashed friendship. Finally Clark does make a true gesture of friendship toward Billy by revealing his identity as Superboy. But this only motivates an absolute tragedy that I find, as a reader, to be irredeemably devastating.

Superboy gives his young friend a whistle--a whistle which releases a high pitched sound that only he can hear (even from a great distance). In the series' most agonizing and torturous scene, Superboy goes off to save an island of nameless people from certain death, while at the same time Billy Cramer self-lessly goes into a burning building to save others only to become trapped in the fire himself. Yet Cramer has absolute faith in his guardian angel and repeatedly blows the whistle in vain hope that Superboy will save him. Meanwhile, Superboy continues with his mission to save the islanders, but uses his vision powers to look in on his endangered friend. He puts off saving Billy until the islanders are quite safe, and then flies off to the burning building. But Billy Cramer is dead--Superboy watched him die and did nothing to save him until it was too late. Billy's faith in his hero proved to be the harbinger of his own doom.

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India Ink
Member posted March 03, 2002 04:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
4. Secret Years (cont'd)

Now there's a lot of death in comics that I can deal with. I can deal with the heroic deaths of Jor-El, Lara, Jonathan, Martha, and Quex-Ul. But this death of Billy Cramer, I just can't deal with it. The devastation is too great. The failure of my hero, Superman, is too monumental. It is simply more than I can stand.

It proves indeed that Bob Rozakis was a great writer, but I wish to God he had never written this story.

Somehow, after suffering for months through the agony of his great failure, Clark manages to get on with his life. We're supposed to believe this life lesson is what finally made Superboy a SuperMAN. Me, I'd've killed myself. But being Superman means you accept that your friends and family may die while you go off and save the world.

Oh, and Perry White becomes an editor at the Daily Planet.

My major complaint about the series aside, there's a lot of nice little touches I like. Little references to other stories (like George Taylor being Perry's editor). Lex Luthor offers a challenge to Superboy in the final issue, and the manner in which he delivers the challenge and the challenge itself remind me of the "Showdown Between Luthor and Superman" from Superman 164, Oct., 1963 and I'm sure Rozakis intended this as a bit of foreshadowing of that ultimate Super-Duel on far-off Lexor.

However I don't like the period details that Rozakis forced upon the story--I gather he intended that the story took place during the final days of the Vietnam War. I feel that these kind of flashback tales should be set in a timeless past.

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India Ink
Member posted March 03, 2002 05:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for India Ink
5. Heroes Against Hunger

In Action Comics 544, June 1983, Lex Luthor returned to Lexor one last time. This awesome 45th anniversary celebration, by Bates and Swanderson, was intended to revitalize the Luthor character--George Perez even designed the new battle suit for "Luthor Unleashed"--while the second story in this super-sized edition, by Marv Wolfman and Gil Kane, rebuilt Brainiac as a Big Head robot. I do treasure this comic and it's so moving to see Luthor with his wife, Ardora, and their son (Lex, jr.), but it's too sad as Lexor is destroyed and no one survives but Luthor and Superman.

Of course, Luthor blames Superman for the destruction of his adopted planet (like Krypton, Lexor's unstable core unleashed a world shattering explosion).

And so Heroes Against Hunger finds Lex still intent on destroying the Man of Steel. Meanwhile, Superman and Batman are trying to save Ethiopia. Fustrating their attempts at a solution to the famine crisis is an alien called the Master, who craves the wide open spaces. He gains great strength "in places that once supported life, but now have died" (as he tells Superman on an Infantino and Anderson